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Old 10-12-2017, 01:22 AM   #81
Philippe
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That's a very important subject. Whatever our opinion on it, in favor or strongly against, it will be a key issue in the coming years.

I'm very, very sad that it's not even possible to adress it without continual personal attacks in every sentence. everyone can feel a deep violence within every sentence.
"Learn to behave" said Swami Sri Yukteswar. The minimum of civility is not present here. The minimum skills to manage constructive communication are not there. The minimum social abilities that enable people to live in the same place, this forum, are not there on this subject.
Again that makes me very sad.
What's the value of our Sadhana if we are not even able to deal with different opinion / contradiction in a civilized way ? We are lying to ourselves

(As living there with you I believe that I am also part of the problem. no one in a group is separated from other people's behavior).
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:12 AM   #82
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That's a very important subject. Whatever our opinion on it, in favor or strongly against, it will be a key issue in the coming years.

I'm very, very sad that it's not even possible to adress it without continual personal attacks in every sentence. everyone can feel a deep violence within every sentence.
"Learn to behave" said Swami Sri Yukteswar. The minimum of civility is not present here. The minimum skills to manage constructive communication are not there. The minimum social abilities that enable people to live in the same place, this forum, are not there on this subject.
Again that makes me very sad.
What's the value of our Sadhana if we are not even able to deal with different opinion / contradiction in a civilized way ? We are lying to ourselves

(As living there with you I believe that I am also part of the problem. no one in a group is separated from other people's behavior).
There is no need to take responsibility for negativity in someone else. We've tried to keep things constructive.

The general concept and observation of someone investing his ego into a belief is useful to all. The greater the injection of the ego, the greater the division it will produce. Of course, someone will always hold an opposite belief, so it is essentially a war mongering approach, where one seeks to push his beliefs upon others. This can never produce constructive outcomes, because transformation comes from within. If anything it is a good exercise. As Master said 'get yourself talked against, and see how you respond'.

The ahimsa concept that Gandhi lived and taught is based on the idea of not injecting the ego into beliefs. To khitomer this topic is about being right or wrong. In this he reveals only himself. Is that who he is? No. It is who is he when he injects the ego into a belief. It is interesting to see, in our dealing with others, when people do so, because each belief so invested is identical to a chip on one's shoulder. A saint as Gandhi was completely relaxed no matter what happened around him, even his own assassination. But many around him, in the political arena, were very tense about their beliefs, and unwilling to let go of those beliefs. Gandhi showed the world what was possible and most of India followed him in an astounding display of that nation's soul. But not all did. And that is another reality in this world. There will never be complete agreement or harmony.

Apparently, our friend wishes to rant about this topic, so we will give him the space to rant. And then we can go on about the problem that is facing mankind.
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:32 AM   #83
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There is no need to take responsibility for negativity in someone else. We've tried to keep things constructive.

The general concept and observation of someone investing his ego into a belief is useful to all. The greater the injection of the ego, the greater the division it will produce. Of course, someone will always hold an opposite belief, so it is essentially a war mongering approach, where one seeks to push his beliefs upon others. This can never produce constructive outcomes, because transformation comes from within. If anything it is a good exercise. As Master said 'get yourself talked against, and see how you respond'.

The ahimsa concept that Gandhi lived and taught is based on the idea of not injecting the ego into beliefs. To khitomer this topic is about being right or wrong. In this he reveals only himself. Is that who he is? No. It is who is he when he injects the ego into a belief. It is interesting to see, in our dealing with others, when people do so, because each belief so invested is identical to a chip on one's shoulder. A saint as Gandhi was completely relaxed no matter what happened around him, even his own assassination. But many around him, in the political arena, were very tense about their beliefs, and unwilling to let go of those beliefs. Gandhi showed the world what was possible and most of India followed him in an astounding display of that nation's soul. But not all did. And that is another reality in this world. There will never be complete agreement or harmony.

Apparently, our friend wishes to rant about this topic, so we will give him the space to rant. And then we can go on about the problem that is facing mankind.
I think that those reactions are part of the question Stream. UBI, freedom, type of society that we want are linked to the way we relate to others. That's the big question for humanity : what new ways of living together on this planet should we invent ? What new paradigms are to be developped if we want humanity to survive ?
I don't want to point at someone. We are all part of the problem and part of the solution. The old "ism" are dead : we have to invent something else.

On a spiritual point of view I am more surprised. We are talking about Yogis who are on the "higher path".
We have a body, we are not this body. We have a mind and opinions, we are not those minds and opinions. Or believes and opinions will die with this body, and we will have very different ones in the future.
How it is possible to cling so much to one's opinons for a yogi on this path is a mystery for me.
How is it possible to use such violence on opinions of other disciples is also a mystery

For sure, I am thinking of specific persons, like everybody here. But those persons are, like us, on this path. I just don't like the miror that I see : that's in that sense that I wrote that we should take responsability for such behaviors. That violence is here, and it is also part of every one of us.
Humanity is very sick, and we are not separated from any human.
We should take responsability for helping others / Everyone is responsible for their own behaviors and life : both are true. Karma is collective, Karma is individual. We are right into the questions raised by UBI.

Something new must happen. And it not just about taxes and incomes....

Last edited by Philippe; 10-12-2017 at 03:20 AM.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:17 AM   #84
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I think that those reactions are part of the question Stream. UBI, freedom, type of society that we want are linked to the way we relate to others. That's the big question for humanity : what new ways of living together on this planet should we invent ? What new paradigms are to be developped if we want humanity to survive ?
I don't want to point at someone. We are all part of the problem and part of the solution. The old "ism" are dead : we have to invent something else.

On a spiritual point of view I am more surprised. We are talking about Yogis who are on the "higher path".
We have a body, we are not this body. We have a mind and opinions, we are not those minds and opinions. Or believes and opinions will die with this body, and we will have very different ones in the future.
How it is possible to cling so much to one's opinons for a yogi on this path is a mystery for me.
How is it possible to use such violence on opinions of other disciples is also a mystery

For sure, I am thinking of specific persons, like everybody here. But those persons are, like us, on this path. I just don't like the miror that I see : that's in that sense that I wrote that we should take responsability for such behaviors. That violence is here, and it is also part of every one of us.
Humanity is very sick.
We can only take responsibility for our own actions. I've tried to be constructive in this topic. If I was unsuccessful I apologize. I understand your sentiment, but SRF or spirituality is no safehaven in that sense. There is no question that I've been the most inspired by the saints I've met in this life, who were in the SRF order. But I've also seen extremely dark behavior from longtime devotees. (in no way does that apply to this thread).

Why is that? Attitude. If we are no longer willing to quickly correct ourselves when we are wrong, and instead dig in the heels of the ego, then it doesn't matter if we are devotees or not. Roughly twenty years into this path the ego (and its ways) often returns. When that happens the right attitude goes out the door. So then all one needs for a real crack at darkness is the triggering of some dark karma. In such a scenario a sincere devotee, when confronted with such behavior, would react exactly as you; expecting much better from the other person. But the other person may have been building up, so to speak, waiting to express the ego. So when the karmic opportunity arrives, it manifests in full force, almost as if it is enjoying to be finally free from the spiritual constraints.

But all examples, good and bad, can be used constructively, to remind us to intensify our effort and always be on guard. I mentioned the injecting of the ego into beliefs, because, in my simple analysis, that is the ultimate temptation, that gives reality to duality. It's always the same phenomenon, but because it takes on so many forms, it is hiding in plain sight.
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Old 10-12-2017, 04:51 AM   #85
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So I suppose that while exploring this new paradigm a first challenge is to agree on the basic principles upon which it is founded.

For instance:

1) we don't want massive unemployment, which is looming at the horizon, because machines take human jobs
2) we don't want to give up the freedom of a free market, and the qualities that are developed when people can unfold without government constraints.
3) we could, in theory, achieve both if the machines did the work that would pay for the UBI. That way there would be no karma owed to machines for taking their money.
4) there would be plenty of incentive to work on top of the UBI, because it would only pay for basic needs.
5) the argument that someone built or owns the machines, and therefore should take all the profit, even if those machines are the reason for massive unemployment, is, in theory, overruled by the needs of the many. At present 5 people own almost half of the world's wealth. That is an absurdity, and an expression of extreme capitalism.

Any other points?
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Old 10-12-2017, 08:01 AM   #86
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So I suppose that while exploring this new paradigm a first challenge is to agree on the basic principles upon which it is founded.

For instance:

1) we don't want massive unemployment, which is looming at the horizon, because machines take human jobs
2) we don't want to give up the freedom of a free market, and the qualities that are developed when people can unfold without government constraints.
3) we could, in theory, achieve both if the machines did the work that would pay for the UBI. That way there would be no karma owed to machines for taking their money.
4) there would be plenty of incentive to work on top of the UBI, because it would only pay for basic needs.
5) the argument that someone built or owns the machines, and therefore should take all the profit, even if those machines are the reason for massive unemployment, is, in theory, overruled by the needs of the many. At present 5 people own almost half of the world's wealth. That is an absurdity, and an expression of extreme capitalism.

Any other points?
Dear Stream

Points 1, 2 and 4 are objectives that could be good principles / frame for building a system.

Point number 3 and 5 belongs to the "opinion and belief system" category ;-)
Problem for me in those ideas is that "The machines" element doesn't exist. It's a too big chunk. It's a complex system of causes, effects, labour, capital that at the ends brings about machines that perform a job.
Machines are a human creation. You need a retribution for the chain of people that brang them to performing a task. If you don't have the retribution, machines are going to stop working very soon.....

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Old 10-12-2017, 12:10 PM   #87
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I did not read all latest comments....but the topic is wide spread. Even in main media. Front page today of Wiesbaden Kurier. Discussion inside, Finland did start a test and Schleswig Holstein will start a test soon with a group of people. They talk about Euro 1000 each/p.m.
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Old 10-12-2017, 12:36 PM   #88
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Dear Stream

Points 1, 2 and 4 are objectives that could be good principles / frame for building a system.

Point number 3 and 5 belongs to the "opinion and belief system" category ;-)
Problem for me in those ideas is that "The machines" element doesn't exist. It's a too big chunk. It's a complex system of causes, effects, labour, capital that at the ends brings about machines that perform a job.
Machines are a human creation. You need a retribution for the chain of people that brang them to performing a task. If you don't have the retribution, machines are going to stop working very soon.....
Yes, they're just general points. Pieces of the puzzle that would have to be researched and worked out in detail. For instance, the third point would be turned into a question: can we set up the model in such a way that 'the machines' (a generalization to be worked out in detail) would pay for it all?

Same for 5. The question would be: do we have a right to put any limit at all on a person's earning capacity? In other words: when is enough enough? Does it really make a difference to a super wealthy person if he owns 1% of all the wealth in the world or 2%?

When we look at a garden and one plant or weed is everywhere it's not a very balanced garden. Would it make sense to use 'harmony' or 'balance' as guiding principle? In the Higher Ages people understand Sanatana Dharma, and these type of questions have been answered, but today?

Before long, we're waist deep into difficult questions. And we're obviously not going to solve this here. But it may be of some use to just explore the territory a little. No problem can be solved unless we follow the trail of questions. I'm encouraged that a visionary like Elon Musk is on board, because he's among our most forward looking entrepreneurs, and he has the ear of many powerful people.


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I did not read all latest comments....but the topic is wide spread. Even in main media. Front page today of Wiesbaden Kurier. Discussion inside, Finland did start a test and Schleswig Holstein will start a test soon with a group of people. They talk about Euro 1000 each/p.m.
The thought is in the ether. That much seems certain...
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:06 PM   #89
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Same for 5. The question would be: do we have a right to put any limit at all on a person's earning capacity? In other words: when is enough enough? Does it really make a difference to a super wealthy person if he owns 1% of all the wealth in the world or 2%?
The German group does say UBI goes for all, even the super rich. And I think this is ok - they could pass it on anyhow. They also get other social benefits like child care money etc. Some rich are truely ashamed about this as stated in public. The founder of UBI ideas in Europe is a rich self made man who started with a drugstore of his parents and did built a large chain of drugstores in EU. I do think he has a Rudolf Steiner background. He was the first who brought organic items in his stores at least 20 years ago and sponsored the first organic supermarket chain in Germany as a partner.
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Old 10-13-2017, 04:31 AM   #90
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The German group does say UBI goes for all, even the super rich. And I think this is ok - they could pass it on anyhow. They also get other social benefits like child care money etc. Some rich are truely ashamed about this as stated in public. The founder of UBI ideas in Europe is a rich self made man who started with a drugstore of his parents and did built a large chain of drugstores in EU. I do think he has a Rudolf Steiner background. He was the first who brought organic items in his stores at least 20 years ago and sponsored the first organic supermarket chain in Germany as a partner.
Well the acceptance of the principle of UBI depends on the type of Culture of the company.
When you talk with old families of the big industry (car industry in my case), they are against. In private, they talk about "Marxism", "encouraging laziness" etc.
In services that's different. I had a lunch yesterday with the CEO of a major consulting firm here. He told me that he was certain that such system will need to be installed in the near future. He said that the capitalism will collapse if we don't do it.
For me it is a paradox that this second person who created his company and works 16 hours per day is in favor of UBI, while families from the industry who inheritated their wealth are very strongly against talking about laziness. (At least the ones I have access to). And most people in those families never worked hard in their life....

We are all a little crazy...
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:17 AM   #91
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Well Philippe - thats somehow the pattern of thinking, divided. It is a matter of consciouness. For those people who inherit wealth maybe it is a karmic chance to develop without too much pain. If they go one thinking others less fortunate are lazy etc....they might learn again the hard way.

I remember Mr. Götz Werner - the first who did talk about UBI - talking on TV in the 80ies. I never believed that this would go through. But it was and is in the ether. Here an article about the heritage of his 7 children. Not much. They have to build their own life without the money of the father. It is all a karmic play and cant be divided in lelft and right. Much work to do!

http://www.manager-magazin.de/untern.../a-711931.html

He is praising the US way of life - certainly gone now.
"Reich zu werden ist in Amerika keine Schande, reich zu sterben schon"!
"In the US is is not a shame to become rich but to die rich is one."

Do our friends in the US know this motto? Your lunch date must have a good level of compassion.
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:35 AM   #92
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Well Philippe - thats somehow the pattern of thinking, divided. It is a matter of consciouness. For those people who inherit wealth maybe it is a karmic chance to develop without too much pain. If they go one thinking others less fortunate are lazy etc....they might learn again the hard way.

I remember Mr. Götz Werner - the first who did talk about UBI - talking on TV in the 80ies. I never believed that this would go through. But it was and is in the ether. Here an article about the heritage of his 7 children. Not much. They have to build their own life without the money of the father. It is all a karmic play and cant be divided in lelft and right. Much work to do!

http://www.manager-magazin.de/untern.../a-711931.html

He is praising the US way of life - certainly gone now.
"Reich zu werden ist in Amerika keine Schande, reich zu sterben schon"!
"In the US is is not a shame to become rich but to die rich is one."

Do our friends in the US know this motto? Your lunch date must have a good level of compassion.
I'm not sure it's a question of compassion in his case. For him he was thinking about economic efficiency.
Nor for me : compassion is not among my first qualities. I'm often quite selfish, and also quite jugmental on the failures of others. ;-)
I just feel very strongly that it is impossible to be prosperous when others are not. One day you face a revolution or a collapsing.... Just a deep belief or a lesson that I must have learnt in the past.
A sort of "if you want to be prosperous, associate others to your successes".
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Old 10-13-2017, 05:54 AM   #93
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Compassion is a vaste complexe - one cant explain - it is a deep rooted way of thought. Your friend might show it, even if he is considering economic reasons. If compassion would not be there, the cosmos would collapse. God is compassion and love....the two go together. On does not even know about it often when making decions, but it is in our DNA and if we stray away 'it' does get covered by 'mud'.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:26 AM   #94
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There is no need to take responsibility for negativity in someone else. We've tried to keep things constructive.

The general concept and observation of someone investing his ego into a belief is useful to all. The greater the injection of the ego, the greater the division it will produce. Of course, someone will always hold an opposite belief, so it is essentially a war mongering approach, where one seeks to push his beliefs upon others. This can never produce constructive outcomes, because transformation comes from within. If anything it is a good exercise. As Master said 'get yourself talked against, and see how you respond'.

The ahimsa concept that Gandhi lived and taught is based on the idea of not injecting the ego into beliefs. To khitomer this topic is about being right or wrong. In this he reveals only himself. Is that who he is? No. It is who is he when he injects the ego into a belief. It is interesting to see, in our dealing with others, when people do so, because each belief so invested is identical to a chip on one's shoulder. A saint as Gandhi was completely relaxed no matter what happened around him, even his own assassination. But many around him, in the political arena, were very tense about their beliefs, and unwilling to let go of those beliefs. Gandhi showed the world what was possible and most of India followed him in an astounding display of that nation's soul. But not all did. And that is another reality in this world. There will never be complete agreement or harmony.

Apparently, our friend wishes to rant about this topic, so we will give him the space to rant. And then we can go on about the problem that is facing mankind.

Sure, go ahead. When you cant play the ball you have to play the man.
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Old 10-14-2017, 09:35 PM   #95
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Well the acceptance of the principle of UBI depends on the type of Culture of the company.
When you talk with old families of the big industry (car industry in my case), they are against. In private, they talk about "Marxism", "encouraging laziness" etc.
In services that's different. I had a lunch yesterday with the CEO of a major consulting firm here. He told me that he was certain that such system will need to be installed in the near future. He said that the capitalism will collapse if we don't do it.
For me it is a paradox that this second person who created his company and works 16 hours per day is in favor of UBI, while families from the industry who inheritated their wealth are very strongly against talking about laziness. (At least the ones I have access to). And most people in those families never worked hard in their life....

We are all a little crazy...
Very interesting observation of the two types of entrepreneurs (self-made vs inheritance) and somehow it does not surprise me that it is so. It is the hard working entrepreneur who is able to relate and empathize with the potential future loss of work, labor and income of his peers and those in his community.
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Old 10-14-2017, 11:00 PM   #96
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Very interesting observation of the two types of entrepreneurs (self-made vs inheritance) and somehow it does not surprise me that it is so. It is the hard working entrepreneur who is able to relate and empathize with the potential future loss of work, labor and income of his peers and those in his community.
True. Also, at this time of Trump, America is more divided than before. Both the right and left have become radicalized. The superficial method of instant communication, through such means as twitter, adds to the problem, because one is supposed to instantly reply to political situations that may arise, and take a 'politically correct' stance, or the tide of public opinion will be turned against one; if only for not responding fast enough. Ironically, the pitchfork crowd mentality has made a comeback through such modern means. As a result of the lack of deeper thought, we see almost no constructive discussion in the political landscape. In this manner, radicalization is spreading like a contagious disease. And along with it division and a deepened sense of duality.

Are we seeing the very elements responding in extreme ways, through Fire (unprecedented in California), Air (unprecedented storms in the East), and Water (major flooding); all with out-of-control expressions? The only one relatively calm is Earth... Is it mankind causing these imbalances?

To bring this back on topic, UBI is simply a way to balance things out. On the horizon is an extreme division between rich and poor. If we don't do anything, most of mankind will live in poverty; which will destroy, among other things, the economy.
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Old 10-15-2017, 02:57 AM   #97
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"To bring this back on topic, UBI is simply a way to balance things out. On the horizon is an extreme division between rich and poor. If we don't do anything, most of mankind will live in poverty; which will destroy, among other things, the economy"

I agree. The problem in creating a UBI will be to avoid falling in the "leftist traps" ;-) that cost a lot of money and create always more poverty. (that's not a truth, that's an opinion ;-) and it's ok to disagree).

For me for UBI to work, i should have those qualities :
- Replace the biggest part of present welfare
- Being really universal
- Decrease the average tax pressure on the working class
- The amount should be low enough to strongly encourage working. Amount should be 600-900 USD for an adult + minimum medical coverage
- First worked hour should bring extra money to the person. Today, the welfare has many negative effects, like people losing money if they work a little.
- Being financed by low flat tax on all work and capital
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Old 10-15-2017, 03:48 AM   #98
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Lets see how election in Austria will end today. If the young 'genius' of 31 is going in charge I do think that he and Macron will change EU. Better or worse....Mrs. Merkel should already think about retirement. ;-)

Nice to read from you simple - greetings!
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Old 10-15-2017, 04:06 AM   #99
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True. Also, at this time of Trump, America is more divided than before. Both the right and left have become radicalized. The superficial method of instant communication, through such means as twitter, adds to the problem, because one is supposed to instantly reply to political situations that may arise, and take a 'politically correct' stance, or the tide of public opinion will be turned against one; if only for not responding fast enough. Ironically, the pitchfork crowd mentality has made a comeback through such modern means. As a result of the lack of deeper thought, we see almost no constructive discussion in the political landscape. In this manner, radicalization is spreading like a contagious disease. And along with it division and a deepened sense of duality.

Are we seeing the very elements responding in extreme ways, through Fire (unprecedented in California), Air (unprecedented storms in the East), and Water (major flooding); all with out-of-control expressions? The only one relatively calm is Earth... Is it mankind causing these imbalances?

To bring this back on topic, UBI is simply a way to balance things out. On the horizon is an extreme division between rich and poor. If we don't do anything, most of mankind will live in poverty; which will destroy, among other things, the economy.
Trump seems to me as just a 'joke' of the people behind the 'curtain'. Maybe Obama was too troublesome for them and they just decided to have it more easier now. Trump is a problem but not the problem. He is just not understanding anything, like a kid playing Halloween. The incoming light is strong on this planet and things might change now faster but with deeper pain. Dont resist, let go the old! Unfortunately the fires, storms and waters do tell us the same.... OM

Last edited by sulmonte; 10-15-2017 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:17 AM   #100
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Trump seems to me as just a 'joke' of the people behind the 'curtain'. Maybe Obama was too troublesome for them and they just decided to have it more easier now. Trump is a problem but not the problem. He is just not understanding anything, like a kid playing Halloween. The incoming light is strong on this planet and things might change now faster but with deeper pain. Dont resist, let go the old! Unfortunately the fires, storms and waters do tell us the same.... OM
The same machine rolls on no matter who is president. Democracy is the show, played out before the public during the election campaign. Plutocracy or oligarchy (take your pick) is the reality, reestablished, if necessary, in the two-and-a-half month interval between the election and the inauguration. This was immediately clear when Obama was elected and began appointing Wall Street execs all over his cabinet, straight in the face of his campaign promises. Similarly, the risk of a neocon takeover after the Trump election was always there. The goal of the neocons, as can be read in their PNAC (Plan for the New American Century) is global domination through one superpower. Another superpower, in that view, will not be tolerated.

Trump never had much of a vision in the first place, so he merely borrowed a campaign philosophy because it would get him elected ("drain the swamp", like Obama's "yes we can" - note the utter simplicity of three syllables, intended as a mantra to hypnotize the people), and now he's exchanged it for another philosophy... Trump's 'America First' agenda was sold as being inwardly turned; to get away from wars and to clean house. That's why, unlike Hillary, he had no interest in pursuing a conflict with Russia. But it didn't take the neocons very long to reestablish control through the generals in the White House that represent the military/industrial complex.

The disease of divide-and-conquer is in an advanced stage in the US. Through the media the minds of people are constantly bombarded with divisive beliefs. On one side is the choice between two polar opposites, A and B, within the same duality. The other choice, as yogis know, is between duality and a transcending view. There is nothing novel about his idea, but the question is how to get it in front of the masses, as Gandhi did.
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Old 10-15-2017, 09:28 AM   #101
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There is nothing novel about his idea, but the question is how to get it in front of the masses, as Gandhi did.
Yes, this is the question indeed. Maybe the 10th incarnation of Vishnu will. :-)

I am curious about Austria now also. We are lucky, we are somehow out of the picture but still have to play our part - this is hard sometimes but we do learn to lean only on God. - Guruji: all things will betray you if you do not put GOD first. My path...!!!!
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:30 PM   #102
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Poor people require help from rich people. This is how life works. To deny this is insanity. It says nothing about opportunities to make money or success in general.

What is really insane is when people are so dumb they allow other poor people to take advantage of their money when those poor people are capable of working. It isn't hard to find out whether someone that is capable of work is just faking not being able to work. But people that are incapable of working due to physical and mental illnesses and disabilities obviously need the wider support of the community based on tax deductions. Nobody argues against this except completely stupid and ignorant people.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:33 PM   #103
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"To bring this back on topic, UBI is simply a way to balance things out. On the horizon is an extreme division between rich and poor. If we don't do anything, most of mankind will live in poverty; which will destroy, among other things, the economy"

I agree. The problem in creating a UBI will be to avoid falling in the "leftist traps" ;-) that cost a lot of money and create always more poverty. (that's not a truth, that's an opinion ;-) and it's ok to disagree).

For me for UBI to work, i should have those qualities :
- Replace the biggest part of present welfare
- Being really universal
- Decrease the average tax pressure on the working class
- The amount should be low enough to strongly encourage working. Amount should be 600-900 USD for an adult + minimum medical coverage
- First worked hour should bring extra money to the person. Today, the welfare has many negative effects, like people losing money if they work a little.
- Being financed by low flat tax on all work and capital
One would hope that they think the whole concept through, in great detail, before implementing it (if it's done wrong, it may not work). But that is usually not how things are done in the political realm. More often than not it's one side pushing against the other, so that a compromise is reached, rather than a streamlined picture.
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Old 10-15-2017, 01:44 PM   #104
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People get punished for crime which is an outgrowth of anarchy on a small scale, and their rights get taken away from them. This is the civilised justice system of law in the western world.

If you want to argue against that by all means try to. You will not succeed though.
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Old 10-16-2017, 10:36 AM   #105
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Yes, people get punished for crimes...but also people in high position are commiting crimes against people. Lots of crimes! Nowadays on this level Dave is daily business. I do think that God and Karma will judge rightly. Actually the courts would be overloaded. But this does not mean that I am for easy going with crimes...!
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Old 10-18-2017, 08:30 PM   #106
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Nice to read from you simple - greetings!
Thank you, sulmonte! Nice to still have a place to visit with fellow disciples of this path.
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Old 10-19-2017, 11:23 AM   #107
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Yes, people get punished for crimes...but also people in high position are commiting crimes against people. Lots of crimes! Nowadays on this level Dave is daily business. I do think that God and Karma will judge rightly. Actually the courts would be overloaded. But this does not mean that I am for easy going with crimes...!
Yes people in high positions do commit crimes that is true. But I think it is worth bearing in mind that middle class and higher class people are more educated in general and commit less crime. The crimes of the rich appear to be to dodge taxes which lower classes have to pay, and to scorn people that need help like disabled and mentally ill people. In another word, Scrooge.

THe kind of crime I was referring to is more like violent crime, burglary, theiving, etc.

The less moral a place becomes, the more crime descends into more violent forms.

Put it this way, where I live, the UK, when I was a kid the shops shut at 5pm and hardly any other shops were open. THis encourages a day life and not a night life. But night life seems to be more normal now for many people, and things here have been getting worse and worse over the last 10 years. People work longer hours without really being told why they ought to do that, except they believe they should do it to get enough money to live a comfortable life. Non controlled immigration borders and no adequate policing and response to it has caused the most upset here to the point my country has pulled out of the EU. Crime levels are ridiculous now. And the irony of all of it is that our Prime Minister used to be the immigration cabinet member under the previous Prime Minister. I say irony, I fear corruption.

Tony Blair was the Prime Minister of the UK and he was supposed to be a Labour party leader. He was supposed to be leading a democracy that was good for the poorer people in society. And he overrided the democratic vote to go to war in Iraq. So we see a clear case of corruption where democracy loses meaning as a word and political concept and we have a dictator on our hands here.

All of this stuff stinks badly doesn't it?
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Old 10-22-2017, 05:02 PM   #108
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=tuoc3cZfaNU
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Old 10-22-2017, 09:08 PM   #109
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Marxist socialism can never solve the tendency toward criminality; it only breeds more of it due to strict regulation of wealth and redistribution of it by authority. Its a self-defeating paradigm that fuels resentment among the masses, rather than alleviating it.

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Old 10-23-2017, 01:37 AM   #110
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Nice video Sulmonte, that makes sense. But declarations of people are one thing, their behaviour is something else.

Varoufakis, who has been a minister in Greece, was rejected by the population. He lied several times and had to leave.
As for the present prime minister of Greece : one of my friends has his children in the same private school in Athens where are his children. It his the most expensive, "higher class" private school in Greece. When confronted on that, the prime minister stated that he didn't want his chidren to be a load for the public school.....
Those guys are not exemplary, to say the least.....
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Old 10-23-2017, 02:21 AM   #111
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Nice video Sulmonte, that makes sense. But declarations of people are one thing, their behaviour is something else.

Varoufakis, who has been a minister in Greece, was rejected by the population. He lied several times and had to leave.
As for the present prime minister of Greece : one of my friends has his children in the same private school in Athens where are his children. It his the most expensive, "higher class" private school in Greece. When confronted on that, the prime minister stated that he didn't want his chidren to be a load for the public school.....
Those guys are not exemplary, to say the least.....
I do know these things...we should not judge....German politicians do have their children also in expensive private schools as do other VIPs. Do you think that our policitians are more exemplary? If your friends children are in this school why not also the children of the PM ?

As far as I know Varoufakis had to leave government when they accepted the EU lines fully after a referendum which was NO from people. He did not want to be part and also the European Troika did want to have his head.
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:11 AM   #112
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I do know these things...we should not judge....German politicians do have their children also in expensive private schools as do other VIPs. Do you think that our policitians are more exemplary? If your friends children are in this school why not also the children of the PM ?

As far as I know Varoufakis had to leave government when they accepted the EU lines fully after a referendum which was NO from people. He did not want to be part and also the European Troika did want to have his head.
People hate Varoufakis in Greece.....

My friend is a militant in very liberal party, he is in favor of private education for those who can aford it.
That's not the case of the PM, who is very close to being a communist.
I don't judge, and I'm quite flexible on political opinions (BTW my children are in private schools).
I'm more interested on the coherence between one's ideas and behaviour, the famous "walk the talk".
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Old 10-23-2017, 03:48 AM   #113
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People hate Varoufakis in Greece.....

My friend is a militant in very liberal party, he is in favor of private education for those who can aford it.
That's not the case of the PM, who is very close to being a communist.
I don't judge, and I'm quite flexible on political opinions (BTW my children are in private schools).
I'm more interested on the coherence between one's ideas and behaviour, the famous "walk the talk".
Dear Philippe,

I am glad for all who can live a harmonious life. We are in a time of upheaval and I do not understand quite your reasoning. All has two sides. I am sure not all in Greece hate Varoufakis. Maybe mostly the rich. I know the Greek people well. Did spent much time.
Anyhow - we have to pray and meditate and spread peace.

IDF
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:02 PM   #114
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For my own education and amusement, I studied the lives of Gandhi and Hitler, to the point where I would -mentally- walk up and down the room, one way in the loincloth of Satyagraha, and the other way in a nazi uniform. It is only a switch in the mind. From this experiment I would imagine that someone with the focus of Hitler, if he would overcome his anger, could be surprisingly close to being a Gandhi.

Both Gandhi and Hitler were socialists. In spite of dark errors it is historical fact that, in but a few short years under Hitler, Germany was transformed from Europe's poorest nation into its most prosperous. (Master even commented on the industriousness he perceived there).

At times of desperation hope is a most valuable asset. Hitler could not have spread his message of hope if there had not been tremendous poverty first. In that fertile soil extremism was born. Another good reason for UBI?
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Old 10-23-2017, 12:54 PM   #115
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For my own education and amusement, I studied the lives of Gandhi and Hitler, to the point where I would -mentally- walk up and down the room, one way in the loincloth of Satyagraha, and the other way in a nazi uniform. It is only a switch in the mind. From this experiment I would imagine that someone with the focus of Hitler, if he would overcome his anger, could be surprisingly close to being a Gandhi.

Both Gandhi and Hitler were socialists. In spite of dark errors it is historical fact that, in but a few short years under Hitler, Germany was transformed from Europe's poorest nation into its most prosperous. (Master even commented on the industriousness he perceived there).

At times of desperation hope is a most valuable asset. Hitler could not have spread his message of hope if there had not been tremendous poverty first. In that fertile soil extremism was born. Another good reason for UBI?
You are always suprising Stream!

A message of hope would be so important these days. So many have no hope anymore for a decent life and they do not have the teaching of yoga. Just the preaching buy, buy, buy, need, need, need....tragic.
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Old 10-23-2017, 04:32 PM   #116
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Hope is at the start of all great undertakings, yet it's quite a mystery substance. What is hope? Politicians often play with false hope, merely to get elected. A spiritualized consciousness can inspire true hope. Perhaps this is one reason why hope seems in such short supply in the world these days. In the old days people used to go to church. Every Sunday was a reset, each week began with renewed hope (at least in theory).

Thank God for our meditation practice. Today, with the world going through such darkness, it is more important than ever. Hopelessness seems a horrible alternative.
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Old 10-23-2017, 07:59 PM   #117
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For my own education and amusement, I studied the lives of Gandhi and Hitler, to the point where I would -mentally- walk up and down the room, one way in the loincloth of Satyagraha, and the other way in a nazi uniform. It is only a switch in the mind. From this experiment I would imagine that someone with the focus of Hitler, if he would overcome his anger, could be surprisingly close to being a Gandhi.

Both Gandhi and Hitler were socialists. In spite of dark errors it is historical fact that, in but a few short years under Hitler, Germany was transformed from Europe's poorest nation into its most prosperous. (Master even commented on the industriousness he perceived there).

At times of desperation hope is a most valuable asset. Hitler could not have spread his message of hope if there had not been tremendous poverty first. In that fertile soil extremism was born. Another good reason for UBI?
Gandhi's socialism was 'spiritual socialism' in the vein of Master and Vivekananda. It was not at all like the Marxist socialism of a despot. If you notice, going by Gandhi's own words, his conception of socialism is based on libertarian ideals, where voluntary cooperation that has nothing whatsoever to do with state action is essential. Master and Vivekananda said much the same thing.


"Gandhi was also never in favor of socialism propounded by Nehru, which emphasized on large-scale production. This massive production, Gandhi feared, would lead to greater exploitation and urbanization. It is this emphasis on decentralization that endeared Gandhi to Vinoba Bhave and Jayaprakash Narayan, and not to industrialists. According to Gandhi, for a real Swaraj to be established, it is not that one class rule be substituted by the other. It is much more than that.

The villages have to be strengthened. He further believed that is much easier to change an institution than a man. Though Gandhi had great faith in institutions and their functioning, he had greater faith in the perfectibility of the individual. Gandhi strongly believed that Western socialism and communism had a strong sense of selfishness.

He wanted the capitalists and the landlords act as trustees holding their wealth for the good of their villages, workers and the peasants. His theory of trusteeship wherein the economically powerful people would surrender their power voluntarily was severely criticized. Scholars like M. N. Roy stated that such a theory would benefit only the propertied class and that the exploited could win their rights only through violence and expropriation.

However, Gandhi opined that violence might destroy one or two bad rulers, two capitalists but such capitalists always crop up. So, the only solution, according to Gandhi, was to change men and not destroy them. Further, Gandhi stated that rich cannot accumulate wealth without the cooperation of the poor; and therefore, if the poor does not cooperate with the rich they naturally mend their ways.

Gandhi also gave his own definition to the word socialism. According to Gandhi, it does not refer to nationalization of the means of production, distribution, exchange, but faith in God, truth, non-violence and equality. So, in simple terms, Gandhian socialism is based on the ideas of non-possession and trusteeship.

It was thus not an ideology of industrialization, planning or state action and, therefore, it does not appeal to the intelligentsia. Further, Gandhian socialism was humanitarian in nature. It cared for the poor and it was a moral code of personal conduct than an economic ideology. It did not envisage the expropriation of the rich through violence or state action.

As far as Gandhi’s ideas on Communism are concerned, though he appreciated its ability to organize masses, he was disappointed that it leads to the establishment of dictatorship. For a Gandhian, an alternative to communism is to establish a society wherein the instruments of production are simple and that the common man could play them in the villages.

In such a society, there would be no concentration of economic power, and so state would wither away and the Marxian dream would not be fulfilled. However, thinkers like M. N. Roy strongly criticized the ideas expressed by Gandhi and stated that he regretted that Gandhi taught his workers not to look upon their employers as exploiters but trust them as their elder brothers and that landlords were happy that Gandhi regarded them as trustees of the interests of the peasants.

He criticized Gandhi for his weak and watery reformism. Gandhi was further criticized for not having a progressive economic ideology that could give him a proper lead to the masses. In short. Communists countered any activity undertaken by Gandhi owing to their reservations against the economic and social philosophy of Gandhi. This antagonism was reflected in their denial to support Gandhi’s Quit India movement.

Despite their criticism of Gandhian philosophy, Communists had great regards for Gandhi as a great humanist. Commenting on Gandhi’s idealism E. M. S. Namboodiripad in one of his books. The Mahatma and The Ism, stated that moral values like truth, non-violence, renunciation of the pleasures of life, political ideals like freedom, democracy, emancipation of women, unity of all religious groups and communities, etc., were ail indivisible parts of his life and teachings. But, unfortunately, Gandhi regarded the workers and peasants as brothers and partners of the classes that oppressed them."

Last edited by khitomer; 10-24-2017 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:23 AM   #118
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Hope is at the start of all great undertakings, yet it's quite a mystery substance. What is hope? Politicians often play with false hope, merely to get elected. A spiritualized consciousness can inspire true hope. Perhaps this is one reason why hope seems in such short supply in the world these days. In the old days people used to go to church. Every Sunday was a reset, each week began with renewed hope (at least in theory).

Thank God for our meditation practice. Today, with the world going through such darkness, it is more important than ever. Hopelessness seems a horrible alternative.
I do think that hope is essential, it is a kind of trust in the world, in life, in people also. Compassion does spring out of this. After WWII there was hope everywhere, people have been more open for each other, which is important.

Maybe the leaders of the globe just wanted to destroy this kind of 'hope' in the people as a tool of control. They suceeded somehow. Most live like in a 'wagon fort' now, only defending their own little comfort zones. Of course SRF devotees are blessed but sometimes they also do live in a wagon fort. We have to help to uplift the world, bring in the light in abudance, the same time we do advance ourselves. It is not without purpose that we are incarnated here and now.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:38 AM   #119
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What you write Khitomer makes sense also, although I don't follow you on everything... ;-)

I listening to someone yesterday who was saying that we only "winners of the globalisation" had a right to speak up.
In all developped countries, there is a difference between big cities, and the country where jobs are lost everyday and shops are closing.

The question of "local production" is an important one.
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Old 10-24-2017, 03:57 AM   #120
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What you write Khitomer makes sense also, although I don't follow you on everything... ;-)

I listening to someone yesterday who was saying that we only "winners of the globalisation" had a right to speak up.
In all developped countries, there is a difference between big cities, and the country where jobs are lost everyday and shops are closing.

The question of "local production" is an important one.
Yes the winners of globalisation....! Amen! The fact of global love is an imprtant one. In big cities in Germany for one payable flat 500 people line up...are we so blind to oversee the cruel facts which most people have to go through? City or country, the same!
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