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Old 03-31-2017, 04:40 AM   #1
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B12 and vegans

An exhaustive and concise review on B12 by Michale Rae in the CR forum. This seems to be a non-dabatable issue (even the vegan societies insist on B12 supplementation in a vegan regimen)



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Vitamin B12
Fortunately, nearly all major vegetarian advocacy and support organizations and authors of books on vegetarian nutrition are now emphasizing the danger of frank B12 deficiency, especially in vegetarians, and the need for a supplement. The sole serious holdout on this front is John McDougall, who continues[i] to downplay the risks of B12 deficiency associated with vegan diets, recommending supplementation only to long-term (>3 y) adherents or pregnant and lactating women, pointing to the production of B12 by colonic bacteria (despite the fact that nearly none of that B12 is produced in parts of the GI tract where it could be absorb), and at least recently[ii] promoting the illusory availability of B12 from seaweed, even after it was known that its presence was being detected because of compounds in the same cobalt-containing chemical group as the vitamin (corrinoids), picked up in nutritional analysis by the standard USP assay method because of their structural similarity to the vitamin, but lacking in bioactivity to mammals.[iii]

There are absolutely no natural, plant-based foods that contain vitamin B12. The long, tenaciously clung-to belief that there are, arises from two sources of error. The first is fecal contamination. The colonic bacteria do produce B12, but unfortunately, we absorb almost none of it: they’re making the stuff for their own use and not ours, and they live much further down in the GI tract than the major site for B12 absorption (the distal ileum), so it passes through us – and, sometimes, traces of it remain on crops where it’s been used as fertilizer. The other source of the myth of vegan B12 is that some vegan organisms (eg, many cyanobacteria (such as Spirulina ), many bacteria (including the ones used to ferment tempeh), and some seaweeds) produce various kinds of “pseudo-B12” that carry out some of the same functions as B12 for them but are useless for mammals; unfortunately, because they’re actually close chemical relatives of B12 (corrinoids), their structural similarity to the vitamin tricks the standard USP method of food analysis, leading to erroneous reporting of its presence.[iv]

Because of this, nonsupplementing vegans are often deficient in B12,[v] and despite the vitamin’s presence in eggs and dairy products, even ovolacto vegetarians’ functional B12 status tends to be poor (eg, ([vi],[vii],[viii],[ix],[x],[xi],[xii])). The main concern with such subclinical deficiency is the elevation in plasma homocysteine, a risk factor for coronary artery disease (CAD). McDougall discounts such ‘mere’ laboratory findings, and misleadingly suggests that B12 deficiency only becomes a concern when the most frank and severe of deficiency develops, complete with neurological dysfunction, but that condition represents a late and acutely dangerous stage of the disease, which is necessarily preceded by a long-term, progressive loss of the critical metabolic functions of B12. The epidemiological association of elevated homocysteine alone renders McDougall’s dismissal of ‘mere’ clinical laboratory findings irresponsible at best— especially now that a study has been completed specifically linking such mild deficiency in B12 to CAD in a predominantly vegetarian population.[xiii] There is also at least a theoretical concern that such long-term subacute deficiencies might lead to a loss of the regulation of genes by modification of methyl groups derived from B12, resulting in an elevated risk of cancer and possibly other cellular malfunction; a study investigating this possibility found such an association, but it was put into doubt by adjustment for confounding factors.[xiv]

Some vegetarian foods already contain B12 through fortification; examples include Red Star nutritional yeast, marmite, and some fortified breakfast cereals. If these foods are real staples of your diet that you eat nearly every day, and they (combined with the rest of your diet) are enough to keep you, on a representative average day, significantly over the new RDA, then that may cover your needs, but that clearly won’t be sufficient if you only eat them occasionally or as snacks or condiments, it would be irresponsible to pretend that an occasional, irregular dose will avert a long-term, subchronic deficiency.

Therefore, while B12 should be tracked in your dietary software as with all other nutrients (the IOM RDA is 2.4 micrograms for adults, except for slightly higher needs for pregnant and lactating women and some older individuals), it is prudent for all vegetarians to take a B12 supplement. A basic, common cyanocobalamin supplement is fine. Ideally, this would begin done immediately upon taking up a vegetarian diet, in which case an RDA-level dose would be quite adequate, although a somewhat higher dose may be required in older people or others with low stomach acid production due to lower absorption. [xv] However, long-term vegetarians (and especially vegans) will likely have spent several years progressively depleting the stores in their livers, and unfortunately, research (conducted in older women) suggests that just jumping back up to RDA levels under such conditions is insufficient to restore healthy B12 metabolism.[xvi]

Whatever you diet and supplement regimen, you will want to determine your actual, functional B12 status, and not just your intake levels. Fortunately, there are two very reliable and well-established tests: homocysteine and methylmalonic acid. Your lab’s reference range should do for methylmalonic acid targets. The optimal level for homocysteine remains a subject of some uncertainty, but the cutoff for increased risk of cardiovascular disease appears to be approximately 9-10 micromoles per Liter.[xvii]
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:37 PM   #2
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An exhaustive and concise review on B12 by Michale Rae in the CR forum. This seems to be a non-dabatable issue (even the vegan societies insist on B12 supplementation in a vegan regimen)
B12 is necessary for everyone. B12 comes from microbes, not from meat or dairy.

There's a lot of mistaken beliefs around B12.

Here's a really good article on B12.

http://baltimorepostexaminer.com/car....OWMGwJkQ.dpbs
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Old 04-09-2017, 05:10 PM   #3
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This is Dr Mcdougall's stance on B12. he's one of the staunchest enemies of supplements.

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Vitamin B12 should be taken when following a strict vegan diet – like the McDougall diet – if followed for more than three years or if pregnant or nursing.
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:07 PM   #4
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b12

I can only speak from experience and examples. I have been a vegetarian/vegan for 14 years. I eat eggs and dairy sometimes, but not on a regular basis. I just did my check up and my b12 level is too high. I do take a supplement 2 times a week, not daily. I eat a lot of sea vegetables, and add it to my smoothies. My 2 kids are also following the same diet and never had any deficiencies. I used to be a heavy meat eater before..and had a ton of issues mainly; anemia, low b12 where I had to get b12 injections at some point. My grandmother has been a vegan for about 50 years..she only eats dairy once in a while. She never takes any supplement..and somehow is still living and just celebrated her 90th birthday in May. There is a gentleman I know that practices Kriya yoga for about 15 years now. He was born a vegan..never touched meat or dairy or eggs. He is 75 years young, has his own business and works 12 hours a day sometimes and is very active and strong...and he doesn't take any supplement. I have seen some many wonderful examples in my life and hope to be fully vegan one day..I am almost there, but I eat too much junk food sometimes. Just remember, each cell in your body is a universe by itself, be careful what you feed them..not just dietary..but thoughts as well. God Bless.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:32 AM   #5
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Interesting info Sonyia, especially about the vegan guy who now is 75.
Nevertheless, are we sure he never took any supplements? If so, he's one of the very rare, undocumented cases who can go without B12 supplementation.

Given the serious neuropathies which can develop with a deficiency of B12, it would be very irresponsible for a vegan not to take supplements and a double negative karma could be reaped:
-Bad karma due to illness caused by deficiency of an essential micronutrient
-Bad karma due to unnecessary obstinacy in the evidence of necessity, especially so presently that so much info is available and widespread.

Hepatic and muscular storage of B12 allows people to stay months or even a few years without B12 supplementation in a vegan regimen. This time is variable though, due to individual variability in enterohepatic circulation. We'll eventually run out of stored B12. Since I hate to be pricked in the vein, i chose to supplement.

Vegan people who don't want to take B12 supplements and wish to avoid the bad karma it could accrue should take regular blood tests and have B12 and homocysteine levels checked. Only in this case they can ascertain whether a deficiency in their own system is developing or not, and when.

When people are not 100% veganas in your case they probably can store up enough B12, but without supplements it may be a gamble.
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Old 10-06-2017, 04:19 PM   #6
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Regardless if your diet is vegan, ovolact, or onivoro. You have to do tests to see the levels of b12. Many factors can disrupt the absorption of b12. And its deficiency brings many problems.
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Old 10-07-2017, 01:37 AM   #7
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Good point Henrique, B12 deficiencies can develop even in omnivore people.

In primates it seems that a sufficient source of B12 was derived from insects and in soil present in variable amounts when eating foliage and plants.

Some vegans do not like the B12 issue because it may be construed such as that a vegan diet is not naturally possible.

I agree that a vegan diet is not a natural one, since if followed for prolonged periods it needs artificial supplementation

A natural, health conducing diet for the human being is a diet which is mainly plant-based but includes a small, even very small amount of animal food. This is what our body needs and this is what Swami Sri Yukteswar wrote in his 'The holy science'.

And this is also what some doctors like Joel Fuhrman, champion of a plant-based diet, affirm. A little animal food is not only allowed, rather usually necessary.
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Old 10-29-2017, 05:29 AM   #8
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The above havign being said, it is undeniable that a vegan diet, from the pure perspective of health, constitutes a powerful tool to prevent many degenerative diseases and even to cure some.

In my experience, it may also constitute a powerful tool to delve deep into meditation, maybe since it tends to calm the mental restlessnes caused by hormonal and metabolic imbalance of the body. Testosterone, estrogens, IGF-1, insulin, they are all rajasic factors which push to hyperactivity. In a yogi they shoud be checked and kept within the healthy range, but perhaps into the lower part of the healthy range.

I insist though that it must be done in a scientific manner, after a lot of study. There are a few very interesting and unbiased books and references on the subject, I'm going to open a thread on them.
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Old 11-12-2017, 05:40 PM   #9
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A natural, health conducing diet for the human being is a diet which is mainly plant-based but includes a small, even very small amount of animal food. This is what our body needs and this is what Swami Sri Yukteswar wrote in his 'The holy science'.
Please, what do you understand Sri Y to have said?

And would one meal a week of seafood (i.e. shellfish), cooked if necessary, be sufficient to fulfil His recommendation?
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Old 11-13-2017, 11:09 PM   #10
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The above havign being said, it is undeniable that a vegan diet, from the pure perspective of health, constitutes a powerful tool to prevent many degenerative diseases and even to cure some.

In my experience, it may also constitute a powerful tool to delve deep into meditation, maybe since it tends to calm the mental restlessnes caused by hormonal and metabolic imbalance of the body. Testosterone, estrogens, IGF-1, insulin, they are all rajasic factors which push to hyperactivity. In a yogi they shoud be checked and kept within the healthy range, but perhaps into the lower part of the healthy range.

I insist though that it must be done in a scientific manner, after a lot of study. There are a few very interesting and unbiased books and references on the subject, I'm going to open a thread on them.
I think you exaggerate the issue, McCoy. You can take a simple and inexpensive b12 tablet, or grow your own vegs and ingest microbes from the soil. The main reason why foods do not contain much in the way of b12 is the sanitization process that much of the food industry undergoes.

People tend to think that eating animal products provides b12, not realizing that many farm animals are fed b12 in the form of supplements, and / or generally get their b12 from the soil.
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:54 AM   #11
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In my experience, it (vegan diet) may also constitute a powerful tool to delve deep into meditation, maybe since it tends to calm the mental restlessnes caused by hormonal and metabolic imbalance of the body. Testosterone, estrogens, IGF-1, insulin, they are all rajasic factors which push to hyperactivity. .
Not always, mccoy, not always.....
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Old 11-14-2017, 08:38 AM   #12
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Not always, mccoy, not always.....
Not always, particularly when one is not aware of the broader issues around the vegan way of living, but when one becomes aware of these issues, the inherent dissonances can adversely affect the whole point of meditation, which is to contact God and support a way of living that honours God in all things.
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Old 11-14-2017, 09:20 AM   #13
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Not always, particularly when one is not aware of the broader issues around the vegan way of living, but when one becomes aware of these issues, the inherent dissonances can adversely affect the whole point of meditation, which is to contact God and support a way of living that honours God in all things.
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Old 11-14-2017, 10:11 AM   #14
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You're a classic PA guy, P. Love you though.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:32 PM   #15
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I think you exaggerate the issue, McCoy. You can take a simple and inexpensive b12 tablet, or grow your own vegs and ingest microbes from the soil. The main reason why foods do not contain much in the way of b12 is the sanitization process that much of the food industry undergoes. People tend to think that eating animal products provides b12, not realizing that many farm animals are fed b12 in the form of supplements, and / or generally get their b12 from the soil.
AG,
pls consult this article from the very respected vegan nutritionist Jack Norris


Apparently, we cannot rely on soil nor any vegetable food for B12.

Unless soil or vegetables are contaminated by fecal matter (sh1t).

To tell it brutally, unless we eat sh1t, we are not sure to ingest B12. We might decide to eat sh1t, with its pros and cons:
the vitamin B12, the probiotics, all the parasites and coliforms and other germs in there.

I'm going to choose the supplements.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:26 PM   #16
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Please, what do you understand Sri Y to have said? And would one meal a week of seafood (i.e. shellfish), cooked if necessary, be sufficient to fulfil His recommendation?
Pachiaammos,
I went back and consulted the great Jnanavatar's work. Just to be safe.

Swami Sri Yukteswar: The Holy Science. SRF, 1984
Sutras 9-11 (excerpts)

Observation of teeth: ...The reasonable inference, therefore, is that a man is a frugivorous or fruit-eating animal
(according to the editor's note this includes fruit, vegetables, nuts and grains).

Observation of the digestive canal: ...Thus we can again draw the inference that man is, in all probability, a frugivorous animal.


Observation of the organs of sense: ...how delightful we find the frangrance of fruits...It may also be noticed that various grains and roots possess an agreeable odor and taste...Thus again, we are led to infer from these observations that man was intended to be a frugivorous animal


Cause of disease: Hence from these observatiosn the only conclusion that can reasonably be drawn is that various grains, fruit, roots and -for beverage-milk, and pure water exposed to air and sun are decidedly the best batural food for man. These, being congenial to teh system when taken according to teh power of teh digestive organs, well chewed and mixed with saliva, are always easily assimilated.


So he mentions: fruits, grains, roots, milk. According to the editor's notes, he means vegetables as well.

Also, from teh AOY we know that he ate lentils with channa (a dairy product).
So legumes and milk, including dairy products, are all right. Only before becoming a monk he ate fish.

Now, your question, even though not included in SY's suggestions, fish and shellfish in moderate amount are part of a pescatarian diet, which some authors believe to be very healthy, even healthier than a vegan diet.

Shellfish once a week according to the literature won't be detrimental to health, maybe it will be beneficial. I would take B12 supplements though, since, especially in elder people, it may not be enough.

Shellfish is not without drawbacks though, for example:

Problems associated with shellfish farming
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:12 AM   #17
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AG,
pls consult this article from the very respected vegan nutritionist Jack Norris


Apparently, we cannot rely on soil nor any vegetable food for B12.

Unless soil or vegetables are contaminated by fecal matter (sh1t).

To tell it brutally, unless we eat sh1t, we are not sure to ingest B12. We might decide to eat sh1t, with its pros and cons:
the vitamin B12, the probiotics, all the parasites and coliforms and other germs in there.

I'm going to choose the supplements.
Go ahead, that's my point, choose a supplement. But don't make a big deal of that. Most living beings do not create enough of their own b12, which is why many farm animals are given b12 as a supplement. The basic idea is that we do not need to eat animal flesh to get b12, since it needs to be ingested from outside sources, even for animals. Do you get my point???? Many people who eat animals rely on the proposition that you need to eat animals to get b12, ignorant of the fact that many of the animals they eat also get b12 in supplement form. So skip the 'middle animal' and take a supplement. Or if you really want to make life more labour intensive, source out b12 through soil, natural running waters, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwIlRVU8clM

Continually making b12 a difficult issue is just another attempt to make vegansim somehow unnatural. Veganism is the best diet for virtually anyone. It supports compassion, ahimsa, good health, and respect for nature. These are all things that animal consumption flies in the face of......

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Old Yesterday, 01:31 AM   #18
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Go ahead, that's my point, choose a supplement. But don't make a big deal of that. Most living beings do not create enough of their own b12, which is why many farm animals are given b12 as a supplement. The basic idea is that we do not need to eat animal flesh to get b12, since it needs to be ingested from outside sources, even for animals. Do you get my point???? Many people who eat animals rely on the proposition that you need to eat animals to get b12, ignorant of the fact that many of the animals they eat also get b12 in supplement form. So skip the 'middle animal' and take a supplement. Or if you really want to make life more labour intensive, source out b12 through soil, natural running waters, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwIlRVU8clM

Continually making b12 a difficult issue is just another attempt to make vegansim somehow unnatural. Veganism is the best diet for virtually anyone. It supports compassion, ahimsa, good health, and respect for nature. These are all things that animal consumption flies in the face of......
I feel AG that there is no need to try do dogmatise a diet as "the perfect diet for humanity". Finding an absolute in this relative world always ends in a nighmare for human beings.
Most specialists , including the Vegetarian Society, state that vegan diet needs B12 supplementation more than any other diet. It's fine, and it doesn't contradict nor weakens the interest of this diet.
Trying to play on concepts like stating that all humans lack B12 may only weakens the many major arguments in favor of the vegan diet. It is counter productive, and it doesn't serve your noble cause.

And if we relate that diet to the srf teachings I believe it's fine also. Master was more in favor of a lacto ovo vegetarian diet. But since His time, the context has changed and we all know the reality of the modern food industry. It seems that veganism is a very respectable and logic new reading of Master's teachings in our modern world.
Again : no need to invent things like "Master thought that people were not ready". Again it would be counter productive, and it's not true.
No. Master is a Rishi. And in the traditional Vedic culture, milk has a central place. It's ok, and it's a reality.
But the context has changed, and modern disciples of a Rishi may make a very good choice when becoming vegans or moving towards a vegan diet.
No need to build a new religion on that. No need to rewrite history or science. Your cause is strong and valid already.

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Old Yesterday, 06:51 AM   #19
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I feel AG that there is no need to try do dogmatise a diet as "the perfect diet for humanity". Finding an absolute in this relative world always ends in a nighmare for human beings.
Most specialists , including the Vegetarian Society, state that vegan diet needs B12 supplementation more than any other diet. It's fine, and it doesn't contradict nor weakens the interest of this diet.
Trying to play on concepts like stating that all humans lack B12 may only weakens the many major arguments in favor of the vegan diet. It is counter productive, and it doesn't serve your noble cause.

And if we relate that diet to the srf teachings I believe it's fine also. Master was more in favor of a lacto ovo vegetarian diet. But since His time, the context has changed and we all know the reality of the modern food industry. It seems that veganism is a very respectable and logic new reading of Master's teachings in our modern world.
Again : no need to invent things like "Master thought that people were not ready". Again it would be counter productive, and it's not true.
No. Master is a Rishi. And in the traditional Vedic culture, milk has a central place. It's ok, and it's a reality.
But the context has changed, and modern disciples of a Rishi may make a very good choice when becoming vegans or moving towards a vegan diet.
No need to build a new religion on that. No need to rewrite history or science. Your cause is strong and valid already.
No one's building a new religion on veganism. I am simply suggesting that the vegan diet coheres quite nicely with the principles of ahimsa, good health and a responsible attitude to the environment.

In general, the vegan diet needs the least mount of supplementation. Check out the facts and you will undoubtedly agree. As we age the need for supplementation increases massively in the animal diet world, where our bodies begin to fight the ravages bought on by the negatives in the animal based diets - heart diseases, cancers, et al, etc.

Don't worry, P, you can hang onto your diet, whatever it is, if you wish. I disagree with you on the milk issues. Check out the facts wrt to medical issues around dairy, and check out the cruelty issues that surround dairy today. If you wish to draw on the concept of Master being a Rishi, and emerge with praise for the dairy industry, go ahead. Master also suggested that we learn to think for ourselves.

My suggestion to you would be to reconsider trying to characterize the vegan diet as somehow extreme. In doing this characterization I feel you are trying to marginalize the vegan diet so as to make it appear that an animal based diet, in contrast, including dairy, is a balanced diet and in accordance with spiritual principles. Take a fresh look. If people want to follow the animal based diet, that is their choice, but just be aware of the three principles I alluded to earlier, all of which are compromised by such a diet.

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Old Yesterday, 09:42 AM   #20
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Don't worry, P, you can hang onto your diet, whatever it is, if you wish. I disagree with you on the milk issues. Check out the facts wrt to medical issues around dairy, and check out the cruelty issues that surround dairy today. If you wish to draw on the concept of Master being a Rishi, and emerge with praise for the dairy industry, go ahead. Master also suggested that we learn to think for ourselves.

My suggestion to you would be to reconsider trying to characterize the vegan diet as somehow extreme. In doing this characterization I feel you are trying to marginalize the vegan diet so as to make it appear that an animal based diet, in contrast, including dairy, is a balanced diet and in accordance with spiritual principles. Take a fresh look. If people want to follow the animal based diet, that is their choice, but just be aware of the three principles I alluded to earlier, all of which are compromised by such a diet.
I'm just stating the exact opposite of what you're reading from me AG.... Word after word, sentence after sentence, you read the exact opposite of what I wrote. Everyone can observe it with their own eyes.
That's quite a scarry process.
I wish you peace AG. Most sincerely.... Tell me if I can help you.

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Old Yesterday, 02:18 PM   #21
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I'm just stating the exact opposite of what you're reading from me AG.... Word after word, sentence after sentence, you read the exact opposite of what I wrote. Everyone can observe it with their own eyes.
That's quite a scarry process.
I wish you peace AG. Most sincerely.... Tell me if I can help you.
Thanks for your comments, P. I will keep in my mind your offer of help.

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Old Today, 02:50 AM   #22
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Thanks for your comments, P. I will keep in my mind your offer of help.
Your irony telle me AG that your misreading was on purpose.... But I can't know your heart : the sincerity of your heart is between you and Guru.

I believe that no rightous purpose deserves unsincerity of heart. It kills the soul.
But if you honestly read in my post 18 what you wrote in post 19, then you really need help. Again only you and Him know.
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Old Today, 04:57 AM   #23
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Guys:

quote philippe:
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And if we relate that diet to the srf teachings I believe it's fine also. Master was more in favor of a lacto ovo vegetarian diet. But since His time, the context has changed and we all know the reality of the modern food industry. It seems that veganism is a very respectable and logic new reading of Master's teachings in our modern world.
Again : no need to invent things like "Master thought that people were not ready". Again it would be counter productive, and it's not true.
No. Master is a Rishi. And in the traditional Vedic culture, milk has a central place. It's ok, and it's a reality.
But the context has changed, and modern disciples of a Rishi may make a very good choice when becoming vegans or moving towards a vegan diet.
No need to build a new religion on that. No need to rewrite history or science. Your cause is strong and valid already.
AG: it is seems Philippe is not really demeaning th evegan diet, rather the opposite.

This considering how Sri Yuksteswar, Yogananda and the SRF lessons do not advise a stricly vegan diet (although they insist on the healthyness of plant-based food).

Also, the matter of supplementation is conceptual, whereas pragmatistic factors may govern, like health and longevity.

By the pragmatistic POW, Dr. Greger ha sbeen doing a good job of underlining the benefits of the vegan diet.

I remain of the opinion that not everyone is ready to adopt the vegan diet, either by lack of goodwill ord by lack of system adaptability. There are lots of anecdotal reports on the latter. I'll try and find some scientific evidence if available.

Last, pls. note I keepg following a vegan regime, so far with satisfactory results. And strangely do not like too much dairy products any longer. Vegan products like soy yogurt, tofu and vegan cheese should be cheaper though and more available. Not so in Italy, often they are costly and full of sugar.
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This world is ruled by invisibilities or ghosts: God the Father , Christ Consciousness, the seven Spirits before the throne of God; and Satan and his legion of evil powers - Paramhansa Yogananda, Man's Eternal Quest.
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Old Today, 05:59 AM   #24
sulmonte
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Guys:
Last, pls. note I keepg following a vegan regime, so far with satisfactory results. And strangely do not like too much dairy products any longer. Vegan products like soy yogurt, tofu and vegan cheese should be cheaper though and more available. Not so in Italy, often they are costly and full of sugar.
They have to be organic quality and this is very expensive. I try to stay on nuts, grains and veggies - not too much mixed or cooked. I do eat at least each 2nd day a kind of dhal. Avoiding soy products mostly. But I must admit that when I am somehow weak or so I do eat some grilled organic fish. Sometimes like once in three months or so. Does help. Avoiding gluten also in Pasta. I take B-complex often, other Ayurveda herbs, VitD3 and from time to time others, what intuition does tell. Ayurveda does work well with me and treatment with music, good oils, homemade ghee, coconut oil, sesame oil (also for massage).
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Old Today, 07:34 AM   #25
Always God
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Guys:

quote philippe:


AG: it is seems Philippe is not really demeaning th evegan diet, rather the opposite.

This considering how Sri Yuksteswar, Yogananda and the SRF lessons do not advise a stricly vegan diet (although they insist on the healthyness of plant-based food).

Also, the matter of supplementation is conceptual, whereas pragmatistic factors may govern, like health and longevity.

By the pragmatistic POW, Dr. Greger ha sbeen doing a good job of underlining the benefits of the vegan diet.

I remain of the opinion that not everyone is ready to adopt the vegan diet, either by lack of goodwill ord by lack of system adaptability. There are lots of anecdotal reports on the latter. I'll try and find some scientific evidence if available.

Last, pls. note I keepg following a vegan regime, so far with satisfactory results. And strangely do not like too much dairy products any longer. Vegan products like soy yogurt, tofu and vegan cheese should be cheaper though and more available. Not so in Italy, often they are costly and full of sugar.
I appreciate what you are saying, McCoy. Thanks for the comments and your obvious wish to reach a satisfactory answer for yourself. For me I believe that the vegan diet would work for everyone from a strictly physiological basis, but for a variety of reasons many make their choices on other grounds.
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Old Today, 07:42 AM   #26
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Your irony telle me AG that your misreading was on purpose.... But I can't know your heart : the sincerity of your heart is between you and Guru.

I believe that no rightous purpose deserves unsincerity of heart. It kills the soul.
But if you honestly read in my post 18 what you wrote in post 19, then you really need help. Again only you and Him know.
I truly appreciate your comments and input, P. Don't get unhappy. And try to stay away from imputing attitudes. Take care of yourself in that regard, and instead stay with the facts of the vegan diet, and in this case b12. It just makes things very complicated when we try to figure out motives and attitudes. It can make things too personal, something our teachings do not endorse.

Peace to you, P. I hope one day we will be able to discuss these things clearly and openly without having to work through so much peripheral stuff. Take care and God Bless.
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Old Today, 09:41 AM   #27
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And try to stay away from imputing attitudes. Take care of yourself in that regard, and instead stay with the facts of the vegan diet, and in this case b12. It just makes things very complicated when we try to figure out motives and attitudes. It can make things too personal, something our teachings do not endorse. .
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(post 19) My suggestion to you would be to reconsider trying to characterize the vegan diet as somehow extreme. In doing this characterization I feel you are trying to marginalize the vegan diet so as to make it appear that an animal based diet

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