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Old 09-19-2017, 04:16 PM   #41
Always God
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AG, the nervous system is sure different but please remind that the nazis started to exterminate the mentally sick people just for that reason, because their nervous system was different, not efficient.
So, even if there are different degrees of sentience, and more and less evolved nervous systems, who are we to judge which life expressions we can kill? Are we behaving like the nazis?

Whereas an 100% ethical vegan should follow the reasonings of Dr Tuttle and eat only fruit and plants which are not killed while harvested.
Even eating nuts and seeds may be regarded as unethical since they constitute potential plants, so you are killing a potential living being there. But to tell the truth I'm not sure when the vegetable consciousness 'incarnates' into a nut. Before or after sprouting? If after then it's ethical to eat unsprouted nuts & seeds.

OK with the following, except carrots, tubers, roots, for example. Also, it may be regarded as unethical to plant tomato plants only to harvest their fruit and then let the plants dry up and die.
I do not think we really being honest with ourselves if we feel the same about killing an animal and a plant …. any plant ! These kind of arguments are just meant to confound and cloud the discussion, and are usually made by people who are not willing to give up their animal products.

it just blows my mind that a person would stop eating sprouts because they’re “babies”, and yet have no problem with a real baby (a calf) being taken from its mother at birth, and later slaughtered.
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Old 09-19-2017, 04:51 PM   #42
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I do not think we really being honest with ourselves if we feel the same about killing an animal and a plant …. any plant ! These kind of arguments are just meant to confound and cloud the discussion, and are usually made by people who are not willing to give up their animal products.
Of course it's not the same thing, but conceptually we are guilty of a similar crime, killing living beings when there is a different choice

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it just blows my mind that a person would stop eating sprouts because they’re “babies”, and yet have no problem with a real baby (a calf) being taken from its mother at birth, and later slaughtered.
My attitude was that as far as I didn't eat calves it wasn't a big deal. Of course it may not be so for us but sure it is for calf and cow.
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Old 09-19-2017, 09:14 PM   #43
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:17 PM   #44
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AG, the nervous system is sure different but please remind that the nazis started to exterminate the mentally sick people just for that reason, because their nervous system was different, not efficient.
So, even if there are different degrees of sentience, and more and less evolved nervous systems, who are we to judge which life expressions we can kill? Are we behaving like the nazis?

Whereas an 100% ethical vegan should follow the reasonings of Dr Tuttle and eat only fruit and plants which are not killed while harvested.
Even eating nuts and seeds may be regarded as unethical since they constitute potential plants, so you are killing a potential living being there. But to tell the truth I'm not sure when the vegetable consciousness 'incarnates' into a nut. Before or after sprouting? If after then it's ethical to eat unsprouted nuts & seeds.

OK with the following, except carrots, tubers, roots, for example. Also, it may be regarded as unethical to plant tomato plants only to harvest their fruit and then let the plants dry up and die.
lol mccoy, guess there isn't anything that you can eat....but starving yourself to death would be very anti-ahimsa and not following Divine Will- human birth is a great blessing because we can seek God, animals can't.

Actually, I remember reading Master saying if you looked at any food under a microscope, there really isn't anything you can eat that isn't alive.
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Old 09-19-2017, 11:52 PM   #45
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Read your own posts. They speak for themselves. Can I suggest you discuss the issues and stop trying to argue ad hominem. If you wish to take issue with what I have said, do that. Do not let poison infect your arrows.

And if you don't like to discuss, then do not discuss. What am I attributing to you you did not say?
Had to look up the Latin term....hmm, maybe, but let's see...nah, don't have any desire to do this - "discuss' as you call it.

Good cause, but don't think your methods are going change things, in fact they seem rather non-ahimsa...you mentioned Master - if he were incarnate now, maybe he wouldn't eat cheese, drink milk, but would he tell everyone that did that they were unethical, supporting cruelty, just all-around terrible human beings?...ok, maybe you don't go quite that far, but you get my point.

Unless and until many more people evolve spiritually, and the treatment of cows, chickens becomes something people will care about, it probably won't change.....people drink milk, eat cheese and eggs...are families trying to feed hungry mouths going to pay twice, three times as much to buy them? Are dairy farms going to change and sell their dairy for prices that no-one will pay?

And BTW, my saying that Sri Yuk ate fish and eggs prior to becoming a swami - one of the "others" you said I used to justify my point - was more about that, as Master said, it's more important what comes out of your mouth than what goes in it ( and yes, i recently read in The Lessons where Master said this, so correct context)...Master of course said diet was important, but he also said there were ruthless tyrants who were vegetarians, and great souls who might eat meat/fish etc..

You are sincere....I don't have the time, or desire, or the typing skill to carry this any further, so keep on, and Jai Guru
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Old 09-20-2017, 09:09 AM   #46
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Had to look up the Latin term....hmm, maybe, but let's see...nah, don't have any desire to do this - "discuss' as you call it.

Good cause, but don't think your methods are going change things, in fact they seem rather non-ahimsa...you mentioned Master - if he were incarnate now, maybe he wouldn't eat cheese, drink milk, but would he tell everyone that did that they were unethical, supporting cruelty, just all-around terrible human beings?...ok, maybe you don't go quite that far, but you get my point.

Unless and until many more people evolve spiritually, and the treatment of cows, chickens becomes something people will care about, it probably won't change.....people drink milk, eat cheese and eggs...are families trying to feed hungry mouths going to pay twice, three times as much to buy them? Are dairy farms going to change and sell their dairy for prices that no-one will pay?

And BTW, my saying that Sri Yuk ate fish and eggs prior to becoming a swami - one of the "others" you said I used to justify my point - was more about that, as Master said, it's more important what comes out of your mouth than what goes in it ( and yes, i recently read in The Lessons where Master said this, so correct context)...Master of course said diet was important, but he also said there were ruthless tyrants who were vegetarians, and great souls who might eat meat/fish etc..

You are sincere....I don't have the time, or desire, or the typing skill to carry this any further, so keep on, and Jai Guru
No one is asking you to discuss this ad infinitum. Simply be open and honest and look at the facts and apply the spiritual principles in your life.

Jai Guru, and blessings.
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:00 AM   #47
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I don't know what's your diet Mike, but I admire your inner peace....
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Old 09-21-2017, 11:51 AM   #48
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AG, the nervous system is sure different but please remind that the nazis started to exterminate the mentally sick people just for that reason, because their nervous system was different, not efficient.
So, even if there are different degrees of sentience, and more and less evolved nervous systems, who are we to judge which life expressions we can kill? Are we behaving like the nazis?

Whereas an 100% ethical vegan should follow the reasonings of Dr Tuttle and eat only fruit and plants which are not killed while harvested.
Even eating nuts and seeds may be regarded as unethical since they constitute potential plants, so you are killing a potential living being there. But to tell the truth I'm not sure when the vegetable consciousness 'incarnates' into a nut. Before or after sprouting? If after then it's ethical to eat unsprouted nuts & seeds.

OK with the following, except carrots, tubers, roots, for example. Also, it may be regarded as unethical to plant tomato plants only to harvest their fruit and then let the plants dry up and die.
Love this mccoy! - I am vegan for 98 percent.....just have some jogurt products from time to time but from an organic organisation which is known and certified for best treatment of cows and their calfes. Just found truely great vegan cheese products which I do eat sometimes. Mostly made of almonds. I do not eat tofu - stopped 12 years ago, made me sick. I am fine - taking some D3 regulary. Artificial meat products no - but all is a gift from God when handled with respect and love. Today I did complain in my market about the way they treat the flower pots, these are always starving for water. Other markets do water regulary and the greens are great. They looked at me in a strange way, but I went on saying that creation should be respected as we do for people...! Well - I liked this....!The line at the chasiers got big ears....

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Old 09-21-2017, 01:05 PM   #49
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ghandi111.jpg

The subject of respecting the lives of all animals is no trivial matter. It may be the most important topic of our generation, which is one reason why it is so denied and argued against by, and threatening to, even 'spiritual' people; and not surprisingly you see that here in direct and indirect ways. Folks have a difficult time letting go of their cherished paradigms. But truth is the only paradigm worth fighting for.

Love all beings.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:34 PM   #50
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AG, since you cited the great exponent of Ahimsa, this is a book which I read 40 years ago and which inspired me, expecially the dietary experiments of Gandhi and his disciples:


In the book he recounts that he quit eating milk and would eat a diet of raw fruit and nuts (no violence even on plants). He eventually got so sick that he accepted very unwillingly to drink goat's milk. This is to reiterate that vegan diets, especially the most extreme, are not tolerated by everyone, and Gandhi was extremely motivated.

Interestingly, I tried to emulate him with a similar diet and went sick as well.

Whereas presently I'm following a strict scientific approach to avoid deficiencies, and it is working.
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Old 09-21-2017, 02:43 PM   #51
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Love this mccoy! - I am vegan for 98 percent.....just have some jogurt products from time to time but from an organic organisation which is known and certified for best treatment of cows and their calfes. Just found truely great vegan cheese products which I do eat sometimes. Mostly made of almonds. I do not eat tofu - stopped 12 years ago, made me sick. I am fine - taking some D3 regulary. Artificial meat products no - but all is a gift from God when handled with respect and love. Today I did complain in my market about the way they treat the flower pots, these are always starving for water. Other markets do water regulary and the greens are great. They looked at me in a strange way, but I went on saying that creation should be respected as we do for people...! Well - I liked this....!The line at the chasiers got big ears....
Hi sulmonte,
glad to hear you are being successful with your experiment with veganism, I'm faring pretty good as well. No problem whatsoever with that 2% non-vegan. Actually, even the strict vegan doctors like McDougall and Fuhrman, the latter proposing a diet based mainly on vegetables, fruit, a little cereals and nuts, advise to eat some animal food once in a while.

In another thread we have observed that the apes, whose digestive system and metabolism we evolutionary inherited, are not 100% vegan but do eat some insects and occasionally even meat. And your care to choose ahimsa products would be sure approved even by AlwaysGod.

I don't know why tofu is giving problems to so many people, if it is organic tofu without additives than it is the lectins or isoflavones from soy which may not be well tolerated.

Also, tofu by itself is pretty bland and tasteless, so it should be seasoned or cooked properly, the same often applies to beans and legumes actually.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:49 PM   #52
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lol mccoy, guess there isn't anything that you can eat....but starving yourself to death would be very anti-ahimsa and not following Divine Will- human birth is a great blessing because we can seek God, animals can't.

Actually, I remember reading Master saying if you looked at any food under a microscope, there really isn't anything you can eat that isn't alive.
We have to awake from that type of thinking. Animals are very high on the evolutionary scale. They feel, perceive, have souls. Read Ramana Maharshi on his cow Lakshmi.
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Old 09-21-2017, 08:54 PM   #53
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AG, since you cited the great exponent of Ahimsa, this is a book which I read 40 years ago and which inspired me, expecially the dietary experiments of Gandhi and his disciples:


In the book he recounts that he quit eating milk and would eat a diet of raw fruit and nuts (no violence even on plants). He eventually got so sick that he accepted very unwillingly to drink goat's milk. This is to reiterate that vegan diets, especially the most extreme, are not tolerated by everyone, and Gandhi was extremely motivated.

Interestingly, I tried to emulate him with a similar diet and went sick as well.

Whereas presently I'm following a strict scientific approach to avoid deficiencies, and it is working.
Disagree, IMO everyone can survive without milk especially considering our choices today. Gandhi was likely incorrect on that one.
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Old 09-21-2017, 10:47 PM   #54
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We have to awake from that type of thinking. Animals are very high on the evolutionary scale. They feel, perceive, have souls. Read Ramana Maharshi on his cow Lakshmi.
Always G, as I said, I respect your position, but you know very little about me. So to make assumptions about others is probably not wisdom.

What type of thinking do I need to awaken from? I have lots of animal buddies - I will have to take a pic and post it of my 'outside pet', Buddy the squirrel ( I am in delusion though, so that type of "thinking" I most definitely need awakening from

EDIT: Actually, I said that human birth is the highest, because we can meditate and seek God, animals can't.....so where in that statement is anything I need to awaken from? Not trying to win, I just think you kind of twist things at times just to make more of your statements....but we are all crazy in our own way, that for sure includes me

Speaking of diet, I'd be curious to know how many SRF renunciants - long-timers, follow a strict vegan diet. Because many of the Brothers & Sisters I've met, well I am certain they are more advanced, than me anyway (maybe not you)...you can feel it, see it in their eyes.

Master said that if all the inhabitants of a city had 100% prosperity, there would still be crime and violence.

I think a similar statement can be made of veganism - if everyone was a vegan, until they were meditating and seeking God, it wouldn't be the answer....I just don't think things in this plane are as black and white as your statements make it out to be, and that includes diet.

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Old 09-21-2017, 11:01 PM   #55
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I don't know what's your diet Mike, but I admire your inner peace....
Thanks Philippe...lol, you should have seen my "inner peace" the other day when my 2 grandsons, who I am pretty much raising right now, tried my patience
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Old Yesterday, 02:27 AM   #56
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Hi sulmonte,
glad to hear you are being successful with your experiment with veganism, I'm faring pretty good as well. No problem whatsoever with that 2% non-vegan. Actually, even the strict vegan doctors like McDougall and Fuhrman, the latter proposing a diet based mainly on vegetables, fruit, a little cereals and nuts, advise to eat some animal food once in a while.

In another thread we have observed that the apes, whose digestive system and metabolism we evolutionary inherited, are not 100% vegan but do eat some insects and occasionally even meat. And your care to choose ahimsa products would be sure approved even by AlwaysGod.

I don't know why tofu is giving problems to so many people, if it is organic tofu without additives than it is the lectins or isoflavones from soy which may not be well tolerated.

Also, tofu by itself is pretty bland and tasteless, so it should be seasoned or cooked properly, the same often applies to beans and legumes actually.
Mccoy - well maybe I did eat tofu too often. The product is so easy to use - in so many ways. I once read that modern soy products are not produced the way it was done in ancient times: fermenting for months, years, that we are using also a different kind of soy which was *invented* during WWII for feeding animals. At least in the US. Soy might be purer now, I do eat from time to time little portions again. But there was a time when soy products have been *enhanced* with MSG, even so called organic soy milk - mostly in the US. This truely was not good for me. It took me long time to find out.

I remember when I once got very sick after a veggie burger at Lake Shrine Retreat. The interesting fact was, that I was in there like at Fort Knox. At this time my mobile did not work in the US. Nobody on duty with the emergency phone number. I did not want to call 911 from the phone outside, I had no coins to call friends. Finally I knocked at my neighbor's door and we went into the chapel - I had been there before long hours - she did the healing service serveral times and we prayed and at 4am things calmed down. I learned for good to stop eating soy and these ready made mixtures. The Retreat had to go through emergency procedures again. All has always multible purposes :-)
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM   #57
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Always G, as I said, I respect your position, but you know very little about me. So to make assumptions about others is probably not wisdom.

What type of thinking do I need to awaken from? I have lots of animal buddies - I will have to take a pic and post it of my 'outside pet', Buddy the squirrel ( I am in delusion though, so that type of "thinking" I most definitely need awakening from

EDIT: Actually, I said that human birth is the highest, because we can meditate and seek God, animals can't.....so where in that statement is anything I need to awaken from? Not trying to win, I just think you kind of twist things at times just to make more of your statements....but we are all crazy in our own way, that for sure includes me

Speaking of diet, I'd be curious to know how many SRF renunciants - long-timers, follow a strict vegan diet. Because many of the Brothers & Sisters I've met, well I am certain they are more advanced, than me anyway (maybe not you)...you can feel it, see it in their eyes.

Master said that if all the inhabitants of a city had 100% prosperity, there would still be crime and violence.

I think a similar statement can be made of veganism - if everyone was a vegan, until they were meditating and seeking God, it wouldn't be the answer....I just don't think things in this plane are as black and white as your statements make it out to be, and that includes diet.

I realize it's not what you want to hear. But there you are. Eat what you want.

It's not a matter of being more or less advanced. It's a matter of examining what we are doing when we are eating. Sure, I know that consuming animal products is the norm for most of the planet. That's kind of obvious, right? All I am saying is that there's a better way available to most of us today. You can rail against it as much as you want, but when we are aware of the FACTS, then we are making conscious choices. There was a time when I consumed animal products too. But when the penny drops, that's when we start making choices.

We can sugar coat this topic if you wish, and you will likely, as you have done, come down hard on guys like me who buck the system to which you are so accustomed, but apply the same kindness and respect my to my attitudes that you expect and are getting from me.

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Old Yesterday, 10:26 AM   #58
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Disagree, IMO everyone can survive without milk especially considering our choices today. Gandhi was likely incorrect on that one.
Unlikely that Gandhi was incorrect on his own specific case, he didn't say that none can survive without milk, he simply stated that he was almost dying and recovered after drinking goat's milk.

Today there are lots supplements though and I agree that with these most people can survive on a strict vegan diet.

But the two of us are speaking without providing any hard evidence... That constitutes pure speculation on both sides.
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Old Yesterday, 10:30 AM   #59
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... But there was a time when soy products have been *enhanced* with MSG, even so called organic soy milk - mostly in the US. This truely was not good for me. It took me long time to find out.
)
MSG definitely unhealthy. Also, those textured restructured soy products, by which fake meat is sometimes fashioned, are not tolerated by everyone. I never eat them.
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Old Yesterday, 10:34 AM   #60
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I realize it's not what you want to hear. But there you are. Eat what you want.

It's not a matter of being more or less advanced. It's a matter of examining what we are doing when we are eating. Sure, I know that consuming animal products is the norm for most of the planet. That's kind of obvious, right? All I am saying is that there's a better way available to most of us today. You can rail against it as much as you want, but when we are aware of the FACTS, then we are making conscious choices. There was a time when I consumed animal products too. But when the penny drops, that's when we start making choices.

We can sugar coat this topic if you wish, and you will likely, as you have done, come down hard on guys like me who buck the system to which you are so accustomed, but apply the same kindness and respect my to my attitudes that you expect and are getting from me.
This is so funked up.
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Old Yesterday, 10:46 AM   #61
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I realize it's not what you want to hear. But there you are. Eat what you want.

It's not a matter of being more or less advanced. It's a matter of examining what we are doing when we are eating. Sure, I know that consuming animal products is the norm for most of the planet. That's kind of obvious, right? All I am saying is that there's a better way available to most of us today. You can rail against it as much as you want, but when we are aware of the FACTS, then we are making conscious choices. There was a time when I consumed animal products too. But when the penny drops, that's when we start making choices.

We can sugar coat this topic if you wish, and you will likely, as you have done, come down hard on guys like me who buck the system to which you are so accustomed, but apply the same kindness and respect my to my attitudes that you expect and are getting from me.
Actually Always G, it's ALL about how much we advance spiritually in this lifetime. That IS the purpose of life! Your cause is good, stopping animal mistreatment is a very worthy cause. But until the majority of people awaken spiritually, things won't change much - Master says this often...but of course you should keep trying.

Don't think I'm "coming down hard" on you....no disrespect, you are a lawyer trained in turning and twisting others words to fit your viewpoint....If I offended you, sorry, but you haven't offended me.

Ok let's look at the FACTS of these past posts:

mccoy talked about not eating sprouts, etc so I responded:

Quote:
lol mccoy, guess there isn't anything that you can eat....but starving yourself to death would be very anti-ahimsa and not following Divine Will- human birth is a great blessing because we can seek God, animals can't.

Actually, I remember reading Master saying if you looked at any food under a microscope, there really isn't anything you can eat that isn't alive.
You then made this post:

Quote:
We have to awake from that type of thinking. Animals are very high on the evolutionary scale. They feel, perceive, have souls. Read Ramana Maharshi on his cow Lakshmi.
Awaken from thinking that human birth is the highest because we can seek God in mediation and animals can't?

The avatar of wisdom, I believe in the AOY, in talking with Master about ahimsa - Master asks him (not exact quote) "should man then sacrifice himself rather than killling"...Sri Yukteswarji says, "No, though man might incur a minor sin for killing an animal, it's his duty to protect himself (and others) as human birth is the most important because it allows the soul to become self-realized" (not exact).

Those are the FACTS of the posts I responded to...you turned it into your speaking platform...again.

here's a quote from Wine of the Mystic:

Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!
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Old Yesterday, 11:18 AM   #62
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Actually Always G, it's ALL about how much we advance spiritually in this lifetime. That IS the purpose of life! Your cause is good, stopping animal mistreatment is a very worthy cause. But until the majority of people awaken spiritually, things won't change much - Master says this often...but of course you should keep trying.

Don't think I'm "coming down hard" on you....no disrespect, you are a lawyer trained in turning and twisting others words to fit your viewpoint....If I offended you, sorry, but you haven't offended me.

Ok let's look at the FACTS of these past posts:

mccoy talked about not eating sprouts, etc so I responded:



You then made this post:



Awaken from thinking that human birth is the highest because we can seek God in mediation and animals can't?

The avatar of wisdom, I believe in the AOY, in talking with Master about ahimsa - Master asks him (not exact quote) "should man then sacrifice himself rather than killling"...Sri Yukteswarji says, "No, though man might incur a minor sin for killing an animal, it's his duty to protect himself (and others) as human birth is the most important because it allows the soul to become self-realized" (not exact).

Those are the FACTS of the posts I responded to...you turned it into your speaking platform...again.

here's a quote from Wine of the Mystic:

Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!
Until you're ready to deal with the issues and stay away from comments such as me being a lawyer, there' no point discussing with you. Making such comments are simply veiled ad hominems. Sorry, my friend, the issues are simple. Treating all of life with respect and dignity is really what it is all about. We degrade ourselves, we degrade the planet, and we degrade out health when we feed into the animal industry. It really is that simple. The rest of the stuff you bring up tends to just be justification for a diet found spiritually wanting.

And btw, if you and everyone had the integrity that most lawyers have, we'd be well served.

Peace, brother, I have nothing against you and your supporter, Philippe, but just stick to the issues, that's all I suggest to both of you.

I actually really respect McCoy, because he's big enough to simply discuss the issues at hand, like every good human being, and, dare I say, lawyer. hahaha
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Old Yesterday, 02:36 PM   #63
Philippe
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Don't forget Mike that I still believe in your patience
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Old Today, 12:38 AM   #64
mike1yogi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Always God View Post
Until you're ready to deal with the issues and stay away from comments such as me being a lawyer, there' no point discussing with you. Making such comments are simply veiled ad hominems. Sorry, my friend, the issues are simple. Treating all of life with respect and dignity is really what it is all about. We degrade ourselves, we degrade the planet, and we degrade out health when we feed into the animal industry. It really is that simple. The rest of the stuff you bring up tends to just be justification for a diet found spiritually wanting.

And btw, if you and everyone had the integrity that most lawyers have, we'd be well served.

Peace, brother, I have nothing against you and your supporter, Philippe, but just stick to the issues, that's all I suggest to both of you.

I actually really respect McCoy, because he's big enough to simply discuss the issues at hand, like every good human being, and, dare I say, lawyer. hahaha
You and your fancy "lawyer talk" ...jk, I am sure there are plenty of lawyers who try to do good in this world...the legal system? well, that's another matter....it definitely has problems, but that goes for most everything in this hell world.

Phillippe - I don't know him any better than I know you....I understood he was trying to say that my inner peace may have been tested in these posts....but no sir, you haven't upset me....Master - his silent voice - if I feel bad, it's Guru who is telling me

I have nothing against you either, but I say things direct, sorry if I was unkind....(but, you say things between the lines Always G, such as your comment ^^^ suggesting that I don't have the integrity that you and most lawyers have...lol ...well, I try anyway

Peace to you too...I'll just end with those lines from Wine of the Mystic again (for you) - if you have the book, read Master's interpretation of these lines ....and a video for you too

Ah, Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would not we shatter it to bits - and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!






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Old Today, 02:15 AM   #65
Philippe
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I would add that eating lawyers would be for everyone here a much worse spiritual crime than eating animals.
Lawyers have a cerebrospinal system that may allow them to reach cosmic consciousness. There is no doubt about that. They have a special place in creation.

Last edited by Philippe; Today at 02:41 AM.
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