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Old 12-13-2017, 12:27 AM   #41
mccoy
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AG, I love my beliefs being questioned. And after the new logical dissection, I shape up a new belief. But some issues would require tons of overwhelming evidence to be turned upside down.

In the case of B12 and EVOO, such evidence is lacking.

I hope you are not against extra-virgin olive oil, that's one of the more non-violent foods we can eat....
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:39 PM   #42
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I hope you are not against extra-virgin olive oil, that's one of the more non-violent foods we can eat....
Surely pressing and smashing those poor olives is not your idea of non-violence...

Another fact about EVOO (sort of lol) ...you are not in the US but one of my favorite cartoons as a youngster was Popeye (the sailor man, toot toot)...you would like him, got his energy from spinach.

Popeye's girl was named Olive Oyl.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:05 PM   #43
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AG, I love my beliefs being questioned. And after the new logical dissection, I shape up a new belief. But some issues would require tons of overwhelming evidence to be turned upside down.

In the case of B12 and EVOO, such evidence is lacking.

I hope you are not against extra-virgin olive oil, that's one of the more non-violent foods we can eat....
Why would you bring up olive oil? Popeye would be surprised that his Olive Oil was not acceptable.

If you want B12, that's an easy fix. Pop a pill. That's what I do...... Everyone needs B12, including non vegans....... and animals.........
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Old 12-17-2017, 03:42 PM   #44
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Why would you bring up olive oil? Popeye would be surprised that his Olive Oil was not acceptable.

If you want B12, that's an easy fix. Pop a pill. That's what I do...... Everyone needs B12, including non vegans....... and animals.........
I bring up off-topic extra virgin olive oil (which is pretty different from simple olive oil) because Dr Greger, together with other vegan doctors like McDougall, Neil Barnard and more (most of'em have very good credentials), have this fixation that olive oil is detrimental (together with all vegetable oils). Notwithstanding an overwhelming amount of literature extolling its benefits.

Non vegans may really need B12 especially after their 50's. Whoever has an impaired gastric digestion may not be able to liberate B12 from food.

An interesting consideration on B12 is that it gets stored in the body and such stores may last enough to avoid deficiencies for 2-3 years. A few people who are exceptional recyclers of B12 may even go without external sources for 20 years. This may be very dangerous because it will create a false illusion, after which they'll suddenly bear the full brunt of neurological disorders. That may mean impaired brain functions.

This would not constitute a good advertisement for the vegan diet.
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Old 12-17-2017, 05:37 PM   #45
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I bring up off-topic extra virgin olive oil (which is pretty different from simple olive oil) because Dr Greger, together with other vegan doctors like McDougall, Neil Barnard and more (most of'em have very good credentials), have this fixation that olive oil is detrimental (together with all vegetable oils). Notwithstanding an overwhelming amount of literature extolling its benefits.

Non vegans may really need B12 especially after their 50's. Whoever has an impaired gastric digestion may not be able to liberate B12 from food.

An interesting consideration on B12 is that it gets stored in the body and such stores may last enough to avoid deficiencies for 2-3 years. A few people who are exceptional recyclers of B12 may even go without external sources for 20 years. This may be very dangerous because it will create a false illusion, after which they'll suddenly bear the full brunt of neurological disorders. That may mean impaired brain functions.

This would not constitute a good advertisement for the vegan diet.
The advertisement for a vegan is that it is good for the environment, good for health, and good for all animals.

Sometimes, McCoy, I fail to grasp the underlying point of your comments.
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Old 12-18-2017, 01:07 AM   #46
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The advertisement for a vegan is that it is good for the environment, good for health, and good for all animals.

Sometimes, McCoy, I fail to grasp the underlying point of your comments.
Truth ? ;-)
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:05 PM   #47
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I bring up off-topic extra virgin olive oil (which is pretty different from simple olive oil) because Dr Greger, together with other vegan doctors like McDougall, Neil Barnard and more (most of'em have very good credentials), have this fixation that olive oil is detrimental (together with all vegetable oils). Notwithstanding an overwhelming amount of literature extolling its benefits.
I agree, some of these people are against olive oil, like Greger and McDougall. They seem to be against all oils in the diet. But I still consume olive oil.

Here's some interesting information on B12:

http://www.wholevegan.com/vitamin_b12.html

https://www.riseofthevegan.com/blog/...-vegan-problem

https://www.veganmotivation.com/vegan-b12-truth/
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:01 PM   #48
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Have a giggle at this. My 5 year old great grand son Moss said, Nana I really like this no meat cheese! we are trying hard to go vegan at the moment the family are vegetarian and some vegan.
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Old 12-21-2017, 06:51 PM   #49
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Have a giggle at this. My 5 year old great grand son Moss said, Nana I really like this no meat cheese! we are trying hard to go vegan at the moment the family are vegetarian and some vegan.
That is funny, and its also wonderful that you're moving in the vegan direction.
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Old 12-24-2017, 03:44 PM   #50
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No-meat-cheese, that's intuitively correct, since milk, from which cheese is prepared, is a direct fruit of the living flesh, or meat, of the cow.

The above is an aspect which is indeed pretty gross.

Although I still eat plently honey, which is not else than pollen vomited by bees, and that may sound gross as well.

However, the taste of milk includes some overtones of flesh, whereas the taste of honey has nothing of it.
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Old 12-25-2017, 09:24 AM   #51
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The advertisement for a vegan is that it is good for the environment, good for health, and good for all animals.
Sometimes, McCoy, I fail to grasp the underlying point of your comments.
AG, sometimes there is no single point, rather multiple points, sometimes it's just discussion without particular bottom lines.

My main remark is that, since vegans are viewed as extreme guys, they must be especially careful in not being irresponsible and damage their health with reckless practices, like ignoring the warnings about B12 and D3.

As you say, the ad must absolutely include good health, otherwise people will be discouraged.The worst ad for the vegan cause is sick vegans. People can always say or think that human health is more precious than animal health (rightly so), but when they observe that the average vegans are healthier than the average omnnivourous, then they have a good bait which will attract them and let them adhere to animal non violence as well.
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Old 12-25-2017, 12:49 PM   #52
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AG, sometimes there is no single point, rather multiple points, sometimes it's just discussion without particular bottom lines.

My main remark is that, since vegans are viewed as extreme guys, they must be especially careful in not being irresponsible and damage their health with reckless practices, like ignoring the warnings about B12 and D3.

As you say, the ad must absolutely include good health, otherwise people will be discouraged.The worst ad for the vegan cause is sick vegans. People can always say or think that human health is more precious than animal health (rightly so), but when they observe that the average vegans are healthier than the average omnnivourous, then they have a good bait which will attract them and let them adhere to animal non violence as well.
If you want to frame it in that light, that's okay. Talking about sick people, look around hahahaha. The world is full of sickness from the consumption of animal products. I think you might be smart to stop worrying about how others see veganism....... most of the negative press is from folks in denial hahaha denial of the health benefits, denial of the environmental benefits, and denial of the compassion aspects, not to mention the obvious issues around hypocrisy (we love animals but we eat them, etc.) Just some thoughts to ponder.

As for B12, this is not a specifically vegan thing, everyone needs B12 including animals.

Be careful how you characterize / frame the issues. The way you frame things dictates the way things appear. The truth in a more objective sense is that veganism is the only diet that is 100% sensitive to compassion, health and the environment. Of course people will try to deny that, but check out the facts.....
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Old 12-25-2017, 01:38 PM   #53
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RE: everyone needs B12: true.

But does everyone need B12 supplements? Nope.

Although after 50 apparently B12 is not well absorbed, so a supplement is advised even to omnivous people! This is a short clip which in a very concise and effective way illustrates the above. The lady, Vesanto Melina, is the coauthor of an excellent book, 'becoming vegan', which I advise to all those who want to becoem more cognizant about their vegan diet.
By the way, my choice is 1000 micrograms twice a week. Very practical.

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Old 12-25-2017, 01:54 PM   #54
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If you want to frame it in that light, that's okay. Talking about sick people, look around hahahaha. The world is full of sickness from the consumption of animal products. I think you might be smart to stop worrying about how others see veganism....... most of the negative press is from folks in denial hahaha denial of the health benefits, denial of the environmental benefits, and denial of the compassion aspects, not to mention the obvious issues around hypocrisy (we love animals but we eat them, etc.) Just some thoughts to ponder.
...
Be careful how you characterize / frame the issues. The way you frame things dictates the way things appear. The truth in a more objective sense is that veganism is the only diet that is 100% sensitive to compassion, health and the environment. Of course people will try to deny that, but check out the facts.....
I appreciate your POW, the fact remains though that vegans are a minority, doing and preaching weird things (as they are seen by the average guys and gals).

We know from basic psycology that one living example speaks far louder than 1000 reasoned suggestions.

It is unfortunately a basic facet of human psyche.

They see an emaciated, sickly looking vegan they think: 'The guy is killing himself with his craziness, no way I'm going to emulate his ways, the environment and the animals can go to hell!"

They see a vibrantly healthy, full of stamina vegan, they think "Heck, after all he may be right, I might even give it a try and see what happens"
Boom! The mental bomb exploded. The silent example may convince people to go eventually vegan and even to embrace compassion for animals and the environment.
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Old 12-25-2017, 06:39 PM   #55
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